We dive in deep on what WordPress Hosting (+) looks like. Jonathan tells us about WP-Tonic and his path to running a successful WP-based business. https://wp-tonic.com https://manananomas.com #wordpress #hosting #manananomas #entrpreneur

Kurt

Folks… If you saw the video play, you know that we are here interviewing movers and shakers. And, uh, as the Manana Nomas podcast, uh, unleashes almost, almost its hundredth interview, uh, which I feel almost silly saying to this person, um, we are going to invite Jonathan Denwood to the stage and to have a conversation with us.

Uh, Jonathan, this will be episode 99. And I know that you’re coming up on like episode 1000 with the WP tonic show. So, uh, absolute pleasure to have you if you would do it. I know that a lot of people see us work together in other places, but you’re here with my listeners and viewers. So if you would give yourself an introduction and I’ll let people know who we’re talking to.

Jonathan

Yeah, sure. Thanks Kurt. But first of all, reaching 90 episode is. A great achievement because most podcasts fade out after 10 episodes So getting to the near the hundred is a great achievement kurt. Thank you I’m,

Kurt

i’m 10 times the average.

Jonathan

Yeah. Yeah, you are. Um, i’m the founder of wp tonic we are Hosting plus provider we’re going to go into what the plus is about during the show And I also do about three podcasts Per week plus a load of video plus write a load of articles and everything else as you know Kurt

Kurt

that part is Something I really want to shine on in this episode Jonathan and that is And I’m just gonna be blunt because everyone that follows me knows I’m I kind of say what’s on my mind, but I see people get a pat on the back or a stage at WordCamp or something for a little bit of work that they do.

And then I look at what you’re putting out. I mean, I review your blog posts for WP Tonic. I am fully, I mean, I’ve almost done a hundred shows with you on WP Tonic and the Membership Machine Show, right? So if we think about, Just the exposure that you create, not only for WP tonic, but for all of these other players in the WordPress space or hosting or SAS environment, dude, it’s phenomenal.

I mean, what makes you just continue to push and drive and, and deliver the content and the level of content that you’re able to put out.

Jonathan

Uh, disparity.

I don’t, I don’t really want to work for somebody else. Um, yeah, well, yeah, it’s a bit of this that, you know, as an entrepreneur, you’re always a bit desperate, aren’t you? But, um, things, I think things are going the right way. Touch wood. Um, I seem to be making process is much slower and more difficult to get the wheel moving.

And I think most people starting on, I I’ve been in business since my early twenties. And, um, it was in retail that I spent over 20 years and I got into web design and development as a hobby. And then I decided, um, to do a mature degree in the UK in web development, um, and design. It was a hybrid, but, um, so I’ve always worked for myself.

So there’s always a bit of desperatity about it. Um, unless you’ve got a very large company. Um, so that, that’s the reality. I don’t want to work for somebody. And because I don’t want to work for somebody, you’re always a bit desperate.

Kurt

It’s so interesting the way that you phrase it. And for those that aren’t aware of Jonathan, he does make up words.

So I don’t know if that’s morality is a word or not.

Jonathan

It’s actually this priority. I think we’re going to

Kurt

take it. We’re going to take it. We’re going to use

Jonathan

a word. If it isn’t, isn’t it?

Kurt

I’m going to hashtag that sucker and see if we can’t get it. The trend after the show. Um,

Jonathan

A bit like Chocolate Factory.

Kurt

A bit like Chocolate Factory.

You mentioned the UK, and people can obviously hear a little bit of tone. Um, your accent really isn’t all that prominent anymore, by the way. But, um, from the UK, what made you choose America in the first place. All the years that you and I have known each other, I don’t think I’ve ever just flat out asked you that.

Why are you here?

Jonathan

Uh, it was my ex wife. He was an American citizen. We met, she was a ski instructor at Heavenly and I bumped into her and that was desired folks. I literally was out of control and I wiped out a ski instructor that 10. which was a pretty good looking one and she just took a fancy for me and she was off work and we just skied together and we kept in contact and then um, she got a job with a U, a US base but um, they had a UK offices and it was a merchant bank and she got a job in London and she, uh, she reckoned she never did that because she was just very engrossed.

Um, you said it was just a convenience, you know, um, and then we got married and I was in retailing a small chain of, uh, dry cleaners. Well, only one production, um, facility and then two to three satellite stores. And I’ve been doing that in my early twenties. And I was a bit burned out from it and not. I really wanted out and she wanted to go back to America, back to Sacramento and I wasn’t keen on Sacramento because all her family lived there and it was too hot for me in the summer.

Um, so we decided to move near Reno, um, because it’s in driving distance and we were both into skiing. So it was a good compromise.

Kurt

Reno’s near a place called Dylan Lake, right? Yes. That place is beautiful. I stopped there on a road trip once. I just saw it. I made a U turn and went back to it. I spent a whole day at that lake.

I thought that place was awesome.

Jonathan

Well, I’ve always stayed in the Washoe Valley, Reno, Washoe Valley, Carson City area.

Kurt

Nice. Nice. So I don’t know if you know this or not, but George Jefferson used his riches from the dry cleaning. Uh, industry to move to the Upper East Side in New York.

Jonathan

Oh well, most of my, most, I was, I didn’t get that much from my retail, uh, business.

I got a reasonable amount and most of it went to my divorce. So, it went to good cause, so.

Kurt

So maybe, maybe the beans are back to burning in the kitchen. Uh, those, those that grew up on 70s TV might be laughing really hard right now. Other people are just confused at the things I say. Um, so let’s talk about business ownership.

So you own the dry cleaning thing, right? Now you’re here in the States. You’ve said, I don’t like to work for other people. Was business ownership. Always in the cards for you or were you like gainfully employed in a corporate job and said this is a mystery I don’t know why i’m here i’m out.

Jonathan

Well, i’ve always had to work because I I um, I have dyslexia um, and It’s, it’s very hard to judge level, um, um, that’s one of the reasons why I got involved in technology.

So basically, um, I’ve had, I have problems with spelling and I have terrible handwriting, but most of the doctors in America and UK have terrible handwriting. Um, But, um, I didn’t have a fantastic experience in the formal educational system. It was pretty brutal. Um, and I kind of left school with no, with no qualifications at all.

So it was, so, um, I basically got into business and always have been in business.

Kurt

I have a friend that is a scout master in California. He’s an old dude. He’s like, I think he’s 68 this year. But he is a funny, funny guy. Um, he is, he was a C student, right? And now he’s a business owner and does pretty well for himself.

Jonathan

I want to point out, sorry to interrupt, but, um, as a mature student, I got a degree and I’ve also got AMA and I’ve also got an American associate degree. So, The most overqualified dyslexic, but I still feel like I couldn’t get a job. Apart from menial jobs, I still have this feeling. Um, but the only good thing about it, um, it’s probably take the incorrect.

probably could get a job somewhere in the WordPress community now. Um, but, um, I’ve got a few people that still like me, most don’t, but you know, I think quite a few people like me. Uh, there’s a few people that definitely don’t, but I’m not, at my age, I’m not seeking, I realize you can’t please everybody, nor should you attempt to.

Um, so, um, yeah, um, but my kind of the good point of the dyslexia kind of motivates me to work a lot harder than other people.

Kurt

Yeah, I, I’m sure it’s not lost. On the audience, what you, the way that you said that, right? I got out of school with no actionable skills and I had to be self employed. And then you went and listed, you know, an MA and associates and, and all of these things.

I mean, obviously you’re educated and you pursue knowledge at a very thirsty rate. When I look at the content that you put out and the way that you keep kind of your thumb on the pulse of things. So I’m familiar with what hosting pluses and the WP tonic setup, but a lot of our listeners aren’t, and we’ll get into that after our break.

But when I think about that and then how you’re able to add so much value from so many other surrounding things, I’ll just ask, how much time do you think you spend a week on just staying up to pace? Like knowledgeable about the industry and what’s going on in there.

Jonathan

Well, I don’t think I am actually, um, I’m, I’m, I’m just out, um, because obviously it’s, it’s the work, it’s the world of WordPress, but I am not setting direct to WordPress professionals apart from my sponsorship packages and, and the relationships.

That I build and the access to people that are good quality developers with the right attitude. Um, it has some benefits to me, but I am not selling directly to. The overwhelming, um, WordPress professional market, which I stroke developers, designers, and all this to see all the extra jobs involved in the WordPress professional space.

I am not, I’m selling. to end consumers mostly. Um, it, I, um, because of the type of packages that I’m selling, basically, um, either directly to consumer, um, through a kind of SAS model or, or as an agency model. Um, there’s a load of overlap that took me a while to accept. Um, but, um, and it really is around the concept of what hosting plus is.

It took me at least four years to really work out that I could, if I was in the WordPress space, I couldn’t really sell something as directly similar to SAS software as a service because, because of the WordPress. community and how it works. It’s a slightly different format.

Kurt

When you start to describe that, um, and again, we’re going to cover this very shortly and stay tuned to this folks, because this is a really important segment coming up, but, um, in business in general, I think about the age of your podcast, the amount of episodes that you have, I think about how you unleash this hosting plus, Kind of platform, and I would venture to call you almost a futurist in that, in that regard, meaning that you came into these types of markets earlier than other people.

Um, what kind of, where would you credit that kind of inspiration for yourself? What, what enables you to think out of the box and see a solution that people haven’t identified as a problem yet?

Jonathan

I’m not trying to be funny. Yeah. Desperate. Well, no, um, I’m much, I’m much more tolerant. You know, I’m used to fire.

Yeah. So I’m much more tolerant of it doesn’t mean I like it, but, um, if you’re somebody that has dyslexia or some, some neuro condition that makes things slightly some aspects of your life harder, or you’ve got a physical disability or you, you suffer some, you know, society problems, whatever it is, um, Either you’re going to give up or you’re just going to have to accept it.

You can, you can have to try harder, get up, try again, um, then probably get up again and try again. Um, um, there’s a lot of trying to put it that way.

Kurt

Yeah, yeah. I just, it’s, I think about one of my own projects that I treat as a passion project and You, you’re very familiar with it. I went to market with it and I tried to sell it and it’s still available, but I just feel like I was very early to market with that particular piece.

Like every time I try to sell to who the avatar is, who the target audience is. I changed the text. I changed the pitch. I changed the offer. It just doesn’t seem to hit yet. And then I realize they don’t recognize the pain yet. Like, like you can sell the pain point or the vitamin. And I’ve been trying to sell it like a vitamin.

And then I try to identify the pain points, but I’m trying to educate and identify pain points for a customer that doesn’t recognize the pain yet. It’s like you see them struggling and you know, you can help them, but they don’t recognize their own struggle yet. And I feel like when I look back on WP tonic and the work of Jonathan Denwood, like with the podcast, you’ve been making those episodes for years, almost a thousand episodes.

So you got into that game early. And started adding value to the community by letting leaders in the community talk.

Jonathan

Well, when I had my original co host, um, he actually encouraged me. We, we’ve had, we’re no longer friends, unfortunately, but that was more, more down to him, really. Um, as well, somebody you don’t actually know.

You can hear the first, I think he was involved in the first 80 episodes. Um, um. Is that, um, I got in it because I came back, I’d gone after my divorce, I needed a break, so I went back to the UK for six to eight months, and I decided even though I love the UK, um, it sounds a bit shallow, but one of the problems in the UK is the weather, um, and one of the nice things about Northern Nevada is you get almost 300 days of sunshine.

It’s a lot cooler than California because you’re up, you’re 4, 000 feet up in high desert. I live in a valley. I don’t live in Lake, I live near to Lake Tahoe, but I don’t live in Lake Tahoe. Um, it’s about, it’s about hours drive to Lake Tahoe. Um, but it’s a lot cooler for most of the year up here. Um, but you get tons of sunshine where in the UK.

Uh, the weather’s very changeable, but there’s a sustained period of six to seven months where it’s just grey. Just overcast and drizzle and rain and I just can’t do that anymore. I just Yeah.

Kurt

Yeah, if you grew up in it, it’d be different if you didn’t know better. But once you’ve been exposed to like 300 days of sun, it’s kind of hard to give it up.

Jonathan

Yeah. I just couldn’t go back to the UK ’cause of that fact. And it does sound a bit shallow, but it is. It is. It does affect you and it affects your moods when you’ve got that. You know, if you don’t know any better, it doesn’t affect you. But, so I came back. I’ve lost the track where I was going with that actually, Kurt.

Kurt

It’s all right. It’s all right. It was kind of like, you know, just identifying why you’re here and, and your inspiration and what keeps you ahead of making decisions before people recognize that it’s a pain or something they need. Um, Let’s do this. I would

Jonathan

just like to finish off market positioning and position a brand.

I’ve got another business that I’ve been running for almost five years and because of WP tonic and it’s got a bit bigger WP tonic, I haven’t put the amount of effort into the other business. And I’ve got a partner that’s been busy with other things and I thought we were going to give up on it. But I actually started to see some progress over the last four months with this other business and it’s kind of been semi dormant for almost, well, we had, we, I was constantly changing the position, the branding and it’s in the real estate.

Industry offering service to brokers and real estate agents, and I’ve been surprised that suddenly I’m starting to start to get some traction because the industry is in the kind of semi declat collapse, but it’s still there’s still a load of agents and brokers still active. And I just think we’re finding better positioning.

Um, but looking back, I don’t think I could do it any quicker because I just didn’t understand the industry. I just, technically the platform’s really good, but I just didn’t understand the positioning where I was going to find my unique spot. Um, it takes, this all takes a lot of time.

Kurt

It does. I, I think back.

Fondly, believe it or not, during that time of the pandemic, I actually made lives almost every day and the core message was regardless of what’s going on around you, you got to find the opportunities within the obstacles, you know, and that’s kind of a play off of what you said about, well, I’m used to failure and I can just keep making tweaks and changes because you said you’re used to failure and you’re not afraid to make tweaks and change.

Jonathan

and also you got to keep your costs down and you’ve got to have some income coming in that allows you to keep. The main thing is to keep in the game mentally and financially. Don’t get wiped out mentally and don’t get wiped out financially so you can keep in the game too. Obviously you’ve got to change things because as Einstein says it, what did he say the first time?

the real sign of madness is doing the same thing again and again. Um, so obviously the, if something’s not working, you’re going to have to change things, but it doesn’t mean on the other hand, people have, there are people that just, if it doesn’t work in the first few months, they’re onto the next thing where sometimes you do have to give up on something, but normally it’s a, It’s um, a process of irritate, not irritation, um, what’s the word?

Um, where you slow changes. Yeah, transitions. That’s not the word I was looking for, but I can’t remember it. But, um, you basically got to work on something and do slight changes. Um, but most people give up too soon or they’re forced to give up. Three, four, nine. Financially or mentally, they can no longer do it.

Kurt

I think about two or three projects I had shortly after getting married. And so that’s stressful, right? Cause you’re trying to be an entrepreneur and be newly married at the same time. And you’ve always got that. Now you’ve got a second set of eyes watching everything you do. And I can remember starting something.

And like you said, not seeing immediate results and given up and then starting something else and trying to stick with it for a while, but then not seeing the. Intended results and given that up. And both of those projects turned into phenomenal ideas for other people to pick up and run with after I abandoned them.

And I think that’s why I’m so hesitant now to give up on things. People will say I’m overly tenacious about certain projects, but that’s because I’ve given up on things in the past and then seen them take off later. And I don’t want to miss that shot when it goes up, you know,

Jonathan

Yeah, I think as long as you can look at the situation and It’s really difficult to really see what, what is going on.

It’s very hard, especially when you worked hard on something, even when people that you respect and you ask for feedback and they give you feedback. It’s very hard to hear it when you really worked hard on something, but you just got to accept it. It doesn’t mean you’re going to have to accept it straight away or even agree with it.

but kind of write it down, put it on the back burner, the feedback you’re getting from people that you respect and then leave it for a while and then have a think about it, leave it, have a think about it and see if you can see why it’s not working and are there small changes or changes you can do around the marketing, the positioning, various things and does it make sense to you, can you, after thinking about things.

Can you see this, um, plan of action for you to change it? Obviously, if you can’t, then maybe you should give it up. But as long as there is a plan of action and it makes some kind of sense, and you can, you’ve got the finances and the mental energy to still do those steps. Um, it’s better, it’s better to work on something gradually and then keep moving from one thing to the other in my opinion, but I’m not saying it’s just my opinion.

Kurt

Yeah. Well, folks, we’re going to jump to a quick break. Uh, when we come back, we’re going to talk about hosting plus and how WP tonic might be the solution for you and your online presence.

You know, when I post edit this, I’m going to put a commercial in here. Jonathan, he’s like, I don’t care. Folks, welcome back to the podcast. We’re sitting here with Jonathan Denwood, having a really good discussion. Um, two things that I want to bring up before we get to the next question. And that is, uh, money on the moss, money on the moss.

com. Uh, we provide internet services. What, uh, we provide corporate coaching and training on leadership, process management. Things like that. If you’re looking for, uh, that type of business consultation, where in the end of your process development, you probably end up with a new website. Then we’re definitely your people to help with that.

Uh, the other thing to consider is if you’re looking for hosting plus, which you’ll hear us talk about here in the next few moments, uh, Jonathan has a link that he says in almost every show I help him with. And that is WP hyphen tonic. dot com forward slash deals. And he has a curated set of plugins and hosting and all kinds of options there for you.

Uh, I know he’s going to be happy that I said that on the show and we can get to the next, to the next question. Um, Jonathan, here comes the point, man. What is, tell us your inspiration for it. What hosting plus actually is

Jonathan

yeah, well There’s kind of three concepts Kind of come into it. It’s basically finding a product that I thought I Wanted to get away from the traditional agency model Um, and funny enough, Matt Medeiros and Mark, um, were doing a live, um, YouTube, um, presentation yesterday and they were talking about this and I had it in the background.

Um, it’s the, um, the traditional agency model, it’s kind of feast or famine, you know, um, where you’re not, you’re not. You haven’t got any deep, any kind of projects coming up. Um, and then suddenly they all appear and they all want it. Yesterday, uh, um, um, I wanted to get away from that. Um, I was looking at the SAS model, but my, um, my skills, my history is in the WordPress.

So, but I thought we need. Um, let’s try to find something in hosting because hosting in the WordPress space is one of the areas that you have the traditional subscription model. which is very attractive for stability, stable income coming in. So I wanted to do and I had noticed that some of the people that seem to make some decent money are hosting providers.

Um, so, um, I wanted to do something in the hosting space. So I thought there must be a way to be a boutique hosting provider. To be a micro brand in the hosting sector. Yeah, because our industries like one of my hobbies is I’m into watches. Uh, and this very large established brands in watches, but there’s all over the last 10 years, there’s a whole sector of micro brands that have appeared in the watch industry.

Um, larger Mike, some of them have become middle brands and then he got kind of real micro brands, boutique watch providers. Um, so I thought I’ve been watching that and I thought, yeah, you should, I think you can build a micro hosting brand. All right. Yeah. Um, the other factor is Um, other people in the WordPress space, there’s been about half a dozen, maybe, um, there’s probably been a lot more, but half a dozen on my radar that have attempted to build a WordPress product, but have what I call sassified it, and that is a totally created word, but what they’ve done is is they tried to take a WordPress plugin and they tried to turn that into a Sass model.

Now, some of them are doing okay with it. Others, um, others have done okay, but it’s always hit a brick wall because it isn’t a Sass. Um, you still have to get hosting. You still, that product. And what they’ve done is they’ve not wanted that core plugin to really work with other plugins because it causes a lot more support tickets.

So then they start building additional add on functionality around it. And it ends up being what I call a WordPress wall garden. So. And what ends up you don’t get any of the benefits of WordPress, which are all these other Lego bricks that you can together with another Lego brick, which are the plugins to build something that be customized to your requirements as a business owner.

You lose that, but then you lose the benefit of SASS, which is kind of quasi more reliability, less hoops to jump through. What you end up is the worst of both worlds. You end up with the technical overhand of clicking all these Lego bricks, but also the benefits, but you lose the stability and the one Swiss army knife.

concept of sass. So you end up with a kind of bit of a frankenstein. Um, and that’s pro in my view, that’s problematic. So how do you overcome that? Well, you, um, the other factor is that, um, a lot of the more premier WordPress hosting providers, they utilize the word manage. And the problem in the WordPress space, the hosting spaces, Manage has been totally abused.

It’s got to the stage where it doesn’t really mean what I consider. With our base product, our base hosting plus, I think we truly do offer a managed WordPress service. And then we’ve got support plus, which adds, and it took me a little bit of time to work out what those boundaries were. How was I going to word it to customers?

Um, where were the dividing lines? Where were the break points? And it’s just taken a lot of time. and energy to work all that out and work out the procedures, the language, where those breakpoints really are so that you don’t give one answer to one customer and give a different answer to the other because you need, you need a system of dealing with questions that come up on a regular basis, right?

So this, this all takes thinking, work. It’s a lot of balls up in the air, isn’t it? It

Kurt

sure is. Uh, you know, because of my experience in other industries, Jonathan, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking of, you know, there’s a reason why people hate the car business and there’s a reason why people hate, especially going to like a dealership to get service work done.

And that’s primarily because somebody can go in and say, I need brakes on my truck. And they might quote that person 500. Someone else will show up the next day with the same truck and they need brakes on their truck. And it’s 780. You know, and it’s like, there’s in a lot of shops, there’s an inconsistency.

So over time they had to come up with flat rate guides and pricing matrix guides and all these things so that things would mesh together better. And people would have a similar response or a similar, you know, experience. And so when you think about your version of hosting. And, and I think we should probably just in a simplified way, tell people hosting plus is you get the hosting, but you also get a curated list of plugins to choose from to do what you want to do with your website.

And Jonathan and his team set that up for you. So that’s a pretty cool deal.

Jonathan

Yeah, it’s, um, because we, we are, we specialize in, uh, membership and community focused, powered, WordPress powered plugins. website. So if you want a build on WordPress, something like you could get with Mighty Network in the community space, or if you want to build something on WordPress that can compete with Kajabi, which is the leading provider, or Teachable, I would say Teachable and Kajabi are the two leaders in that space with a over more than probably over half a dozen other providers.

But I would say Kajabi, Teachable, Mighty Networks and Circle, they’re the four leaders in my opinion in the SaaS market. It’s an enormous market. Um, education is still expanding, not formal, but in the informal space is still growing and there’s still enormous opportunities for individuals or small organizations.

There’s just a host of different people that are utilizing what I call e learning to either make their business more attractive to, um, or selling their experience to consumers. Um, so we provide a list of plugins that are fully licensed that we provide as a package, plus we configure it all together.

Plus we provide the email marketing backbone because email marketing, and we set all that up. So, so saying it’s. Hosting plus is really the right term because it is hosting because even in the more expensive so called managed hosting space of WP Engine or or Kinsta or around The 25 to 40 space. Um, you don’t get anything we charge 55, but compared to the SAS, that’s reason, but if you pay yearly, it goes down to 35, which is extremely competitive for what you get as a bundle, isn’t it?

Kurt

I can’t help but think about the value of the bundle. I mean, if we’re just going to be blunt, right? Whether you want to go with LearnDash or you want to go with Lifter, you’ve got that, um, those in the know, you know, you can look at the pricing page for either one of those. And you’re going to see that that’s hundreds, if not over a thousand dollars to get into that.

And then you’ve got WP fusion. If people are going to go build something more advanced and need automation, um, you include that. And then the CRMs that you put in with fluent, that whole package, it has value. So when I look at your list and I study the WP tonic. Uh, method, you know, you and I’ve had this private conversation before.

I’m like, I can’t believe you don’t charge more, but, uh, you do offer it at a really good value. And I wanted to make sure our listeners and viewers knew about it and understood the ins and outs of it. Um, where do you see this idea of hosting plus going over the next year? Possibly two years with all the other stuff.

Jonathan

I’ve Obviously, you know, my other company, we’re in the process of migrating some of the key functionality that’s offered and we’d be offering a, um, and I’ll be bringing Kurt on board with this when it’s got set up. Our, um, development team are working on it right now and I’ll be adding fluent booking hopefully to the mixture and it will be aimed at the coaching market.

Or aimed at, um, the, the storm school market, the more kind of, I haven’t really worked out which of those two markets it will be, but it’s a more, um, it will have the marketing optimization, um, It will be a more WordPress with still the ability to add Lego blocks to it. If you want, um, um, it will be more kind of a SAS model, um, but offer this marketing automation, um, in built with landing pages and being able to send text and the email sequences.

So really it’s going to be a real direct competitor to Kajabi. So I’ll be able to offer a more SASS environment and a more, but this is all very tricky.

Kurt

Yeah.

Jonathan

This is, this is not only a functionality question and getting something that actually works. It’s about how do you position it and this is a lot more trickier than a SASS product.

Because WordPress isn’t Sass and Sass, you know, and Sass isn’t WordPress. But, um, and there was this movement about turning WordPress into a service. Um, and it hasn’t, it’s never really taken off. Um, because the positioning, the branding, nobody’s really, Got it really spot on. So everybody’s struggling. I think my strength is I think I’m one of the few people publicly that’s talked about this.

Um, I’m sure other people have been thinking about it cause I’m not the brighty, I’m not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but nor am I the bluntest. Um, I think a lot of people are not aware of it. It’s a kind of positioning branding question that hasn’t got right. So I’ve got that, but I’m up to even something more because, um, I’m scheming even more.

Uh, um, Kurt, um, I, I’m planning to really go up against Buddy Boss and provide a much better solution than Buddy Boss that works with Lifter and Learn Dash provider app as well. And I’ve made progress on that. Um, and I, I’m on the stage and maybe moving forward on that as well.

Kurt

That’s, that’s a big jump. Um, for those that are not in the know, um, there always seems to be this weird thing out there where people want to take their WordPress site and turn it into a mobile app and there’s all these.

Strange, bizarre things that land in my email box that tell me how easy it’s going to be with one click to convert my WordPress page into an app. And funny thing, folks, I’ve tried a bunch of them and they don’t work. So, so it’ll be, uh, interesting to see how Jonathan can move forward with that and make that an actionable thing for, for.

Well, it’s fine.

Jonathan

I’m, I’m trying, I’ve, I’ve been trying to find a technical. Somebody that can bring up and bring into the team and be a technical founder with me and I think I found somebody we’re just talking back and forth and also I found a methodology that will allow us to build a minimum viable. Um, it’s going to be a WordPress plug in, but it’s going to be linked to app as well.

And we found, we might have found a way of that. We don’t have to throw a ton of money so we can build something that will be a minimum viable product and see if we can get it. That will work to something work, but allow us to try the market and then invest more money. in, in adding more functionality and polishing it.

Kurt

I’m going to ask you a question off the cuff. It’s more of a follow up to the last thing that you were talking about with SaaS versus the WordPress environment. And it’s this. So, beyond the work I do with Lifter LMS and the way I help you at WPtonic and Manana Nomas, I run the WordPress meetup in Hutchinson.

And just last night, I was talking to a gentleman who is trying his best to build what he wants in Squarespace. I have other people in town using Wix. I have people asking me about Shopify stores and. It seems like, and I have clients that are also in Kajabi and stuff. So I have some working knowledge of these platforms and there doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of flexibility.

You and I always say things like WordPress gives you ownership, digital sovereignty, and flexibility to build what you want, and then there’s all these people using these SAS tools without a lot of flexibility and freedom. So why do you think it is that people come to? The WordPress marketplace and whether they have paying clients or not, when they’re building a new course website or a new membership website, they are so focused on what they want to customize or change or implement rather than just launch their, launch their platform and see if it, See if a minimal viable product creates revenue.

Jonathan

Well, I think it’s WordPress. Um, I think a lot of the people that we deal with, I understand them and they, but they, they have a tendency to overdo it where the other people, um, I think, I think WordPress because of what’s happened with page builders, what’s happened with Gutenberg, what happens in general in the market, in the WordPress market.

It’s not, it, it, it, and I think that’s what I’m trying to also, obviously I’m trying to make a decent living, but I think you, I think you, I don’t know, I don’t expect you to say yes or no. I’m not in this to become a millionaire. I’m just in here so I can secure a reasonable future for myself and I just don’t have to work for somebody else.

They’re, they’re my two main objectives, Kirk. I don’t, and, and I have a reasonable retirement, uh, um, um, I’m not looking to become a billionaire, but I’m also, um, I think, um, with these kind of hosting plus niche providers in the WordPress, um. I think we’re going to have to offer a more solidified solution, but avoid a total walled garden scenario.

We just got to find that sweet spot where we’re giving more, we have more control over the situation and more guidance. And I think we’re getting that with WP tonic and hosting plus that, you know, we have a couple of clients that haven’t listened to us or in the past. Kind of thrown every plug in and service onto their website and it leads to a really hot mess But they gradually know some of them we lose and they just blame us and they go off and then they’re probably trying different Providers but others are stuck by us and then they gradually learn the hard way and they start listening Don’t they and they gradually kind of control them, but it is difficult Because I don’t I don’t know When you look at a lot of their customer base and you wonder how are they going to cope with something like Wix or Squarespace where they have no flexibility, do they?

No, that’s, that’s the part that is so, um, dumbfounding. You’ll see someone say, well, I’m so frustrated. I’m just going to go and put my course in Kajabi. And I think to myself, you’re going to move to Kajabi and you were the one that wanted to change these buttons, change this layout, custom dashboards. And I think to myself, you’re going to move to Kajabi and you were the one that wanted to change these buttons, change this layout, custom dashboards.

You know, all these things, uh, automations and tags and CRM integrations. And I’m like, and you think it’s going to be easier and Kajabi to get with

Jonathan

you? Yeah, I think they’re mixing. Uh, it’s just occurred to me. I just want your feedback. I think they’re mixing two things up because they’re mixing because they, um, They get sucked into all this customization at the wrong moment because, um, it’s obviously everything, everything has its right time and they’re just trying to do that all that too early.

Um, so that, but then they know they need to get launched. So there’s two things working in two different directions. So that builds frustration. And we, um, And that’s why with my other podcast, The Membership Machine Show, this is why I’m always going on about startup bootstrap startups, why I’m always going on building the minimum viable course, um, you know, um, just like the minimum viable product.

the minimum viable course. I’m always going on about it, aren’t I? I’m a bit tedious, aren’t I? Because I, I think it’s you, if you accept that concept that you’re there to build the minimum viable course, get something that’s reasonable, but you’ve got to get it out there and start marketing and trying it.

Um, it, it, it gets you in the right mind place, so you don’t get sucked in and then reach this frustrating point where you chuck it all in and go into something that’s even more confining, which is called Kajabi.

Kurt

Well, I want to move on and I want to address Well, first I want to thank you. I’ll thank you publicly.

Um, you’ve turned me on to a couple of what we’ll call leaders in business and industry. Um, one of them is Rob Walling. You know, I was on the show with you when we interviewed Rob and he was, um, gracious enough to send us both copies of his book as it was getting released. I read the stinking book and then I actually put it in an audio book and re listened to it with his voice.

Riding my bike and I followed his podcast over the last year as well. So that’s an example where you’re tied to the community and the industry and your connection to leaders in the space has really been a benefit to me. Who else would you consider, you know, thought leaders in business and leadership, whether it’s in WordPress or any other industry?

Jonathan

Well, on my list was Rob Rowling, because, you know, he does the podcast startup for the rest of us, which I mercilessly, mercilessly copy a lot of these ideas, but I do say. I, I am honest about it, aren’t I? I say, well, I’ve just copied Rob’s Yeah. Format and applied it to the members, because I honestly do believe that Bootstrap, a lot of the concepts that he goes for in his podcast, um, Startups for the Rest of Us, I think you can apply to start in a, Membership called space e learning business in 2024.

All right. And he does the micro conference as well, which I was thinking of going to, but, um, I didn’t, um, um, cause I’ve got other things. to pay for and that. The other one, um, who’s actually coming on the round table show in July, actually, again, is Jason, JC Cohen, the founder of WP Engine, um, Jason, like Rob, um, they’re personal friends anyway, um, Rob.

Invested in Jason’s company in WP Engine, um, I made a ton of money, but Jason is one that I’ve been following Jason like Rob for donkey’s years, I’ve been, I got into the both of them around 2010 to, that was, I didn’t read that word, I started following them around 2011 2012. Um, and, um, they’re both highly influenced me and I would say, I’m not close friends to them, but I’m more than, I would say they’d be happy to say I was more than an associate, I would say we are friends, I’m friends with both of them.

Yeah. Um, and they’re just two great guys, you know, and they’re very knowledgeable. And they’re not pushovers. They’re both hardcore business types, but they are still both generous in what they do for people. They haven’t become totally cynical and bit of asshole types, which a lot of business people do because it’s so, it’s so difficult to get a successful business.

The amount of crap you have to deal with. You can become very cynical and very bitter. They, both of them are still generous. and haven’t, they haven’t allowed that process to happen to them.

Kurt

Keeping your sense of humility as you grow and expand is a challenge. You know, remembering where you came from and, and extending grace to people.

That’s a challenge all the time. I wasn’t that good at it 15, 20 years ago. Jonathan, it took a lot of time, a lot of reading and a lot of study to be able to give people some patience. And you can tell that well, it’s one of my

Jonathan

week. I am not, I do care, but I am not patient. I am blunt. But I can be very, um, but I can be reasonably caring as well, but I can be, um, my mother came from Yorkshire, she never lost her York, and Yorkshire people are in England, um, English people in general are more blunter.

Well, some people would say they’re not, um, some Americans would say English people aren’t. They are, um, more polite in some ways. Um, but my mother came from Yorkshire and Yorkshire is notorious for breeding very blunt people. And she was extremely blunt. And I think that rubbed off on me a bit. And to some degree, um, I just prefer people to be honest with me, you know, um, there’s a different, but that’s not excuse for rudeness.

Kurt

No, I UK as being delightfully cutting. Like they’re very polite when they insult you, I have a friend I used to work for at Ducati and he’s got a knack for just saying it and just spitting it out with a smile and you not getting pissed off, you know, he’s just, he’s just summed you up and giving you a critique.

Jonathan

That’s the thing I miss. I still have a, my UK family and I still kept in touch with about two to three UK friends. And that’s the main thing I miss is the English humour. Um, there’s, there’s, there are a few Americans that really get English humour and quite like it. There’s a lot of that don’t and I really miss that banter and that back and forth.

And a lot of English people, they like a good argument and they’re okay with it. Where a lot of Americans It’s got to the stage that you can’t really talk to people. Um, it’s not worth the aggro and you’re marked as a degenerate if you don’t agree with them and that, you know, it’s just not worth the aggro.

Where in Britain, I’m not sure if that’s changing in Britain, it probably is. Um, but a lot of, not all, but a lot of British people, um, you can still have an argument with and still keep the friendship and. Um, I’ve always liked the good discussion because most things are grey. There’s only a few things that are really black and white.

Most, most stuff, it’s just an honest opinion and could go either way. Could, you know, um, uh, it’s mostly, uh, I’ve mostly found it’s only arseholes that really think that everything’s black and white, aren’t they? They just haven’t learned anything.

Kurt

Yeah, you gotta be a little pliable, at least open to concepts.

I might not like it or truly believe in it, but I’m always open to hear what someone’s gotta say. And I see that in you too, so I think that’s one of the reasons we get along so well. Um, one more question before we go, and this one is So we’ve already identified you as, you know, ongoing self education, a mover and shaker in the industry, almost a futurist with your business.

And the amount of content you create is formidable. So, so we’ve established, okay, the professional side, we got, we got a picture of Jonathan, but dude, what do you do away from the desk that gives your life a sense of balance or that thing that quiets your brain? When, when you’re, when you’ve had enough.

Jonathan

Yeah, it’s kind of, um, but it only covers like three to four months of the year. So, um, I do like skiing. I like getting out in the mountains and skiing.

Kurt

Have you gotten better since you met your ex wife?

Jonathan

Um, I actually became a better skier than her. I don’t go down many blacks now. Um, it’s mostly around the grooms bonding around and then occasional black.

I do kind of, when I warm up, look down and think, Oh, well. Hopefully my medical insurance will cover a broken arm. Um, but, um, yeah, but it’s mostly, it’s mostly fast. I do like bombing around fast. Um, um, so I do that. I do like walking in the countryside around here. I tend, um, I try and keep myself reasonably fit and I walk about five to six miles a day.

Um, first thing in the morning and in the evening when it gets a bit cooler. Um, so it’s, it’s a, it’s a between five, three and six miles a day. Um, And skiing and, um, and I got a slight hobby around watches. I’m fascinated by time and, uh, I keep away because I’ve spent much too much money on watches. Uh, I’ve sold a few, um, and, um, I tend not to wear, I have about two to three, very expensive watches, but I don’t wear them cause I’m scared of getting mud.

So I’m probably going to sell those cause there’s no point. And I’ve just bought really cheap, um, homage, like. Watches so it doesn’t matter but probably is I still probably get mugged because they probably won’t know the difference So I still probably get come with So he knows but yeah, so is that but all this all this stuff Um, I like podcasting because I was a big, um, kind of self educated me because when I was at school, my parents, my father was quite successful, but he came from a very working class background.

My mother did. My father was pretty successful in business. Um, but, um, they were very traditional English as well. So they just left my, you know, left my education to teachers and these teachers just kind of, um, beat the shit out of me all the time. You know, um, um, one look at me, cause I was always pretty bright, but couldn’t get the results that they were looking for.

So they started hitting me quite a bit. Um, which isn’t nice. Is it? Old

Kurt

school, only old people like us remember that.

Jonathan

Oh yeah, they used to cane me left, beat me left, right, and center. I am a, so that kind of, um, makes me a little bit of a rebel, really, because, um, I’ve sampled a bit of authority and, um, but on the other hand, I think, I think people do look for leadership.

I think, I think if you get a group of people and in a business or in the army or whatever, they know who should be running it. I think there’s a, I think there’s agreement about who’s the right person or he or she, I think everybody knows in the organization, you can not only does the talk, but can do the actual work and on the other hand, they also, uh, A non psychopath leader knows that he knows he needs a break or he needs to move on to another part of the business and offer opportunity to somebody else.

Kurt

Yeah.

Jonathan

Um, cause he wants to do the same thing all the time. If you’re open person, you’ve got confidence in what you’re doing. It’s all these people that got personality problems and, and that, but most organizations, this is fear of. of kind of quasi openness and quasi democracy, but most organizations know the people that can do it.

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t. Would you agree or do you think I’m mislead?

Kurt

No, I totally agree. And it’s amazing how quickly a group of people can identify a leader in a group. Um, you know, it’s, think about the selection of a jury. They go into the jury deliberation room. There’s 12 people in a room and within 10 or 15 minutes, That group of people will pick one or two people that are going to lead that jury.

Jonathan

I’m kind of, I’ve got that air. I think I’ve been told I’ve got that kind of air, but I actually don’t want to do it anymore because, um, yeah, because it’s aggro, isn’t it? It’s a burden. It’s a pain in the ass being the leader, actually. And I think that’s a right, if you’ve got people that you’re on the right person, it’s these people that need to be the leader.

They actually need it.

Kurt

Yeah.

Jonathan

That’s a problem when you really, really, I just, you know, I’ve had a few occasions where I’ve had to take a leadership role because otherwise we’re all going to go down the shithole. Um, but I didn’t really want to do it cause it was painful. It was really painful. That leadership role.

I didn’t really want to, and I certainly didn’t want to keep on doing it after we got over crisis. I wanted to get rid of it as quick as possible.

Kurt

Yeah. Delegate it and move on.

Jonathan

Yeah.

Kurt

Well, Jonathan, I want to thank you, man. Cause the time that you’ve given us is super valuable and it was nice. Here’s what was nice about today’s time with you and that is just putting the issue on the other foot.

You offer the spotlight to so many people in the space, and rarely do you get to be in the spotlight. So it was fun to get to know more about you and share you with our listeners and viewers. How would you prefer people to get in touch with you if they’re new to Jonathan? How would you prefer them to make a connection?

Jonathan

Well, um, look for the WP, uh, Tonic podcast show. Go to i iTunes and look that up. You, um, you can, um, follow me on Twitter, Jonathan, at Jonathan Dingwood, um, or you can join the WP Tonic YouTube channel. Um, there’s a load of stuff always being published on there. I think I’ve got a fail. I haven’t got a big enough audience really.

I think I’ve published a thousand videos on that channel.

Kurt

That is, um, that’s one of those weird things about YouTube. There are a ton. Of talented creators with less than a thousand subscribers. And they might have a ton of views, but people don’t subscribe. If you go and you like it, make sure you subscribe, make sure you hit the bell, all those things, do it to the Manana Nomas channel as well.

I’m up to 84 subscribers now.

Jonathan

Well, yeah, you, you told me, cause I think I’m up, I’m up to 1600 there. Um, but, um, I’ve got to tell you, But also a lot of people buy users to be quite truthful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but the only thing is I kind of don’t get enough, but a lot of them, yeah, you know, but they’re, they’re the main areas.

If you want to follow the show and follow me, Twitter, the podcast, YouTube channel.

Kurt

Excellent. And don’t forget to visit WP hyphen tonic. com forward slash deals. That’s all you’re going to get from that page. I

Jonathan

know we’ve got our course page. We’ve got the WP tonic. com slash course. And if you want to learn how to build a WordPress.

Um base membership website using lifter cadence all the modern lego bricks It’s really inexpensive kirk Um actually develop the course it shows you from the beginning to end how to build a membership website and wordpress Go there site buy it and it will save you a ton of agro and time

Absolutely jonathan.

Thank you so much