Mark’s Bio

Mark Szymanski is the Founder and Lead Digital Strategist at FindIT Tech, a web design, digital marketing, and automation agency based in Pittsburgh, PA. He helps brands build smarter systems and better online experiences. Outside client work, Mark shares insights as a content creator and educator, breaking down tech, business, and strategy via his YouTube channel and other social media platforms.

Show Summary

🚀 **Get Ready to Be Inspired:

Dive into the Latest Mañana Nomas Podcast with Mark Zamanski!** 🎙️

Hey there, WordPress enthusiasts and digital dreamers! If you’re looking for a dose of inspiration, practical insights, and a peek into the vibrant world of web design and entrepreneurship, you need to check out the latest Mañana No Mas Podcast episode featuring the one and only Mark Zamanski!

This episode is packed with energy, real talk, and game-changing advice that’ll leave you fired up to level up your own journey in the WordPress community.

Kurt and Mark dive deep into their unique paths to success, from Mark’s leap into freelancing and agency-building to Kurt’s pivot from the car business to dominating the web design space. They share raw, relatable stories about learning the hard way, finding their strengths, and navigating the highs and lows of entrepreneurship.

Mark’s infectious passion for technology, digital marketing, and community-building shines through as he dishes on how he went from building sites in college to becoming a well-connected voice in the WordPress world. But it’s not just about their stories—this episode tackles big questions:

• How do we break the echo chamber in the WordPress community?
• How can freelancers escape the low-price trap and scale their businesses?
• What’s the deal with balancing creativity, technical skills, and profitability without losing your soul?

Mark drops gems on simplifying your business, focusing on what you’re actually good at, and leveraging tools like Etch to stay ahead of the curve. Plus, there’s a heartfelt discussion about authenticity, mentorship, and why you don’t need an invitation to make your mark—just a willingness to show up and share.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to grow their web design business, connect with the WordPress community, or simply get motivated by two guys who’ve been through the grind and come out stronger. Don’t miss out on the laughs, the lessons, and the actionable tips that could spark your next big move! 🎧 **Watch the full video interview now** and get ready to take notes!

Then head to (https://mjs.bio) to connect with Mark, sign up for his newsletter, and stay in the loop for his upcoming projects. Like, subscribe, and share this episode to keep the Mañana No Mas vibes rolling! Let’s build, learn, and grow together—see you in the comments! 🚴‍♂️💻 #WordPress #WebDesign #Entrepreneurship

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Transcript (AI generated and not edited)

 Kurt

Hey folks. Welcome back to another Manana Nomas podcast. As you know, uh, I put these episodes out when someone that’s really awesome agrees to come and share some time with me that can maybe add some value to you. I met this guy named Mark Zamanski, uh, on the WP Tonic Podcast doing stuff with Jonathan and he just.

I mean, he seemed a, he’s younger than me, so, so he seemed vibrant, youthful, all those things. Um, but then after that chat with him, I saw him on screen with Matt Maderis. I saw him on screen with Kevin Geary. I saw him on screen with like all these people. And for his time in the space and for the energy level he brings, he seems really well connected in what a lot of us do for a living.

So I thought it’d be really cool to introduce you to Mark and let Mark tell us a little bit more about himself.

Mark

Kurt, my man. Thank you so much for having me. Greatly appreciate it. Uh, and thank you for that intro there. Yeah, I mean, just to add a little bit more to it, uh, a little bit of background we can dive into it is, um, yeah, I mean, so the last I would say, I keep saying like year and a half, but now it’s probably like two, two and a half years I feel like is, has been predicated on diving more into the WordPress community, um, which is totally different than just being a part of WordPress because you could.

Be using it for a long time and not actually be in the community. And that’s kind of, uh, some of the stuff that you were talking about there, which is being more connected, just getting to know people, product owners, uh, content creators, et cetera. I started building websites when I was like, kind of in college.

So like, I graduated from the University of Pittsburgh in, what was it, like 20? 18, I think at this point. And, and then I had like a job and I was right. I left my job right before kind of COVID and everything started, so right around that time, you know, 2020 ish or whatever. Uh, is when I left and I just started building websites really like as a freelance designer and, um, an agency owner, if you want, if you want to call it that.

And then, you know, I was doing that for a few years and then I was creating content about other stuff, but then ultimately I was like, I have this skill that I’d like to tell people about. And I just started making, you can go back on my YouTube channel and you could see I just started making content about Elementor, about bricks when I switched there.

And that’s kind of what propelled me into. Literally just into the community space of mainly WordPress. And now I’ve, you know, uh, we could talk more about kind of like where I think I’m headed. Um, but ultimately that’s kind of it in a nutshell. I’ve always just been really interested in technology and now digital marketing.

Uh, we got AI and automation coming down the pipeline here too. But, um, yeah, that’s the quick synopsis I would say of how I got to where I’m at.

 Kurt

It’s, it’s amazing that we both kind of ended up, you know, in this pathway together, but from very different. Paths. Um, I was in the car business for a long time, like Matt Maderis.

Matt Maderis was in the car business. Yeah. And, um, I was on the service side and I would do 13, 14 hours a day, concrete floors, arguing with people from sun up to sundown about stupid stuff. And what happened to me was, I was just so keyed up when I got home from work. I was like, I gotta find a hobby or something.

Um, and I latched onto Macromedia 2004, which for young people. It became the Adobe Creative Cloud that we have today. So that’s where Dreamweaver and Fireworks, a discontinued graphic software package came from and all those things. I didn’t go to school for this. I literally spent the money, bought the software, locked myself in a room in the basement, and just taught myself how to do stuff.

And I started building websites like for non-profits in the community, like people that I knew. Friends from church or whatever, and I was like, oh, I could probably help you with that. And I would just do it, you know? And then I was like, I should probably start charging people for this. ’cause apparently I’m half decent at it.

And so again, freelance like you. But then when the economy really took a dip in like 2008, 2009, I told my wife, I said, I cannot keep going to a building and standing on a concrete floor for 13 hours a day to make 35 bucks. Yeah, I can’t do it. I’m gonna quit. And she was like, oh my God, don’t quit. And I did the coffee shop thing for a while and I did some other like, you know, anything like meet people and try and sell a website.

And I was like, you know what? I gotta get an office. As soon as I got on office, business doubled. And then I made some other strange changes that seemed counterculture at the time, but each of those changes, I lucked out and it was like, doubled my business, tripled my business. And by the time. I left Albuquerque, New Mexico, Ducati, north America was my number one client.

So, damn. But all that to say, I never knew about the community. Through all of that, I built that out on my basement in the darkness of isolation, um, hurts and lessons. Learned the hard way the entire way. And it wasn’t until Word Camp San Diego, what was that? 2020 21. Can’t remember what year it was, but that was my first word.

Camp, uh, lifter, LMS took me and they are so gracious, they introduced me to everybody they knew like, if, if Chris Badgett knows somebody and you’re a guest with Chris Badgett, you know who that is. Like he introduces you to everybody plugs you in. And it was instant. I ended up on podcast meeting everybody, you know.

Um, let’s, let’s just, let’s just call this out. Um, there was a post this week on x. It got some attention. Imran had said, are we creating an echo chamber or mm-hmm. You know, is the community really solid? And then I can’t help but think about this. Like, I, I think about this all the time. Yeah. Um, disadvantaged people, groups, people with uh, uh, all the different communities that we could list by name.

And they all say disadvantaged people groups. Disadvantaged people groups. And then I look at who I perceive to be these influencers and people that like Chris introduced me to, right? Like, so Katie, Keith is one of them, right? So, okay. Woman column. But then I look at you, Kevin, Matt, myself, Jonathan Denwood, Chris Badget, REMS Poodle Press, WP Tots.

We’ve all got something in common, right? And, and I go, so is that the echo chamber that everybody’s upset about? And then have you ever given thought, like, how do we expand that? How do we invite these other groups into our circles? Because nobody invited me. I turned on my camera and went live.

Mark

Yeah. You know, it’s a tough topic.

Um, because, you know, I chatted with, and I, I just chatted with Matt about this a little bit, uh, too in our last, our last chat, um, I. I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t have an answer for you, man. Like, yeah, I, I, I wasn’t invited here. Like, you know, I wasn’t like, I, I, I, I had a skill and I was gonna make a point too about this kind of, I think it all kind of goes together, is like, you know, you could probably go your entire career.

I’m sure people have, you know, in WordPress you could be making millions of dollars possibly with WordPress and not really be involved in the community aspect at all, because you don’t have to be, which is a, which is kind of like cool and, you know, whatever. Like it’s a cool thing that you could do that, but.

If you know, and once you get involved in the community, I feel like it is mostly a net positive, at least from my experience, but also there are like drawbacks to it because you know there’s, this is a little off topic and I’ll come back to that other thought. It is. If you go so far, ’cause I’ve already done this in just like the short time is I go, I’ve gone so far down the rabbit hole that it al al almost ends up being detrimental to my business because I’m so like in the weeds of like core versus page builders versus this versus that.

And it’s like that is not making me any money. Like maybe if I make content on it and really monetize it. But ultimately there’s not as many people that really care about that type of content as there are people that you know you could build or help. Scale their businesses through digital marketing and website and stuff.

So, um, I think it’s important to be involved. You know, personal opinion, because I do like the connections and everything, but at the same time, I think there’s net, there’s, there are some negatives to it, but over, over, overall it’s been a net positive. Coming back to what you were saying there is Yes, just like you said, I was not invited, like I just had a skill.

I knew WordPress and then I wanted to, at the very core of it, wanted to share my life. One of my life mottos is learn, try and share. So like I learned things, I try them for myself. I’m like, oh, this is pretty cool. And then I wanna share with others. I don’t know why I am like that, but that’s what I wanted to do.

And that’s the reason that I wanted to do that. And that’s, and that’s what, what the motivation was there and I just started doing that. So. I mean, I feel like you don’t need an invitation. I feel like this is like a pretty welcoming community. What I don’t see a lot of is. I don’t see a lot of, um, people dissing on people that much.

Like, I mean, again, you could comment on certain, like times where it’s like, oh, my approach is better than your approach. Like, I don’t really see that as like a dis personally, uh, everyone has a different opinion on this, so it, you know, it’s like completely subjective. But what I don’t see is like, I don’t ever see, like, don’t come into the community.

That’s not what I see. I, I’ve never seen that. I don’t see explicit invitation all the time, but it’s like. There’s a, there’s another thread to this. It’s if we’re specifically talking about creating content there, there is this concept of are you actually good at creating content? And I don’t say that to be an asshole.

What I say, I say that to mean. I say that to be like, are you engaging? Do you care about your craft? Are you trying to make your your set look good? Are you trying to make your videos look good and things like that? I’m not saying you need to be world class, but my point is that if you put out like.

Mediocre stuff. You can’t really expect everyone to love that. You can’t expect everyone to like get a, get a bunch of attention from that. This is really hard. It takes a lot of consistency. It takes a, it takes a lot of work. Like, I don’t know if you, I’m sure you remember Kurt, like other times I’ve talked to you, I was, I had a fucking bed in my background.

I don’t know if we’re allowed to swear here. Sorry about that. I just, it’s okay, but I get passionate. I just get passionate about this, but like. I had a bed in my background. Now I had, now I kinda like built the studio and I put a little video up. It’s like I’m trying to make myself better at the skill of creating content or contributing educational stuff to the community and things like that and just like, and do all those types of things.

I’m not saying it’s a requirement, I’m just saying basic human nature. Especially in 2025, people like care a little bit about how much you care. Like if you care about your craft, then you can do that. So I know that was a, I know that was a long-winded answer, but. I’m just saying that I haven’t seen anybody be really like, get out of here.

I haven’t seen, I also haven’t seen invitations and the only thing that I feel like I could do is I, I try to do all the time is like, Hey, listen, this is what I do. I learn, try, and share. What I would encourage you is to watch what I do, then watch other people, and then if you want whoever you are, I don’t care.

Race, religion, creed, sexual orientation, like whatever, right? Like whatever you are, whatever you wanna do. If you want to share the thoughts that you have, I would encourage you to share them. What I would also tell you though is that just because you’re sharing stuff doesn’t mean people are going to, like, you’re gonna become a celebrity.

That’s not, it’s not a one-to-one there. Um, it, it, it’s not like you’re absolutely going to be accept it isn’t the right word, but it’s not like you’re gonna become a thought leader just because you’re talking. But talking is a prerequisite to becoming a thought leader. Yeah. So that’s, that’s just how I operate.

And I, you know, again, I encourage everyone to like do that. Um, at the same time, I’ll say it’s probably not for everyone, but you don’t know that until you try and then you see what, what happens, you know? So yeah.

 Kurt

To your point, I have tried. Lots of things. I tried doing the, uh, you know, everyone was doing those virtual backgrounds for a while and I was like, I’ll do a professional virtual background.

Uh, newsflash bald people look stupid on virtual backgrounds ’cause it does weird blocks around your head. Like it never looks right. It never cuts just to your head. Um, so it’s like, I think the hair, I think the, I think the. The curviness of the hair or something, does something to make, make it work better.

Um, but it looks extremely fake when bald people do it. Um, interesting. Yeah. So, so, so that was one of my things. And then, uh. I used to work outta my garage and I, I was a master tech for Ducati. I, I worked for Ducati for a while. I worked for Suzuki. I always had tools in the garage and bicycles. I love bicycles.

And one of my friends who’s like a mentor, mentor, co peer, whatever, he was like, dude, forget all this technology nonsense. Everyone that knows you, knows that you ride bicycles and that you work on motorcycles. Like just film it where you’re at with the tool board right behind you. So for like two years I made live content with a bunch of special tools hanging on a wall behind me, and I thought it was really stupid.

But then I was interviewing a publisher for a, a book company and he goes, Hey, you’re the guy with all the tools, right? And I was like, oh. So I guess that kind of branding kind of worked, right? Yeah. And then we moved to Kansas. I thought about redoing this room. I really thought about it, like I was just gonna redo the whole thing.

But then I was like, part of my brand now is I’m the guy that escaped California and got to the, to the lower cost of living, you know, country friendly, small town Kansas vibe. And that’s what I’m trying to put in this room. Like small town Kansas vibe. I even got my cowboy hats back there. Yeah. Um. Will it stay that way forever?

No. Eventually I’m probably gonna upsweep the game, do a dark wall and nice little shadow lights behind me someday. Right. But it’s, it’s like everything’s in phases and to your point, you have to take it somewhat serious or else no one else is going to.

Mark

Yeah, I mean, I just think that. I mean this all obviously borders on a conversation of like branding, like you just said there.

Like that’s a really important part of it. Um, and that could be whatever you want. Like it doesn’t matter exactly what your set is per se. It’s more so, like I said about like consistency. But ultimately, like I would just say back to the point of like. You could, anybody should feel free to kind of share like what they’re go, what they’re, they’re interested in their skills and everything like that.

And then, you know, I don’t know the specifically about the, uh, the point that Imron was making that was, it sounded more like there was a little bit of like promotion, not just like sharing your stuff, but like, also like promotion. From almost creator, creator or from like WordPress? Like how much, how much They’re, um, kinda like promoting each people, like each person in their thing.

Yeah. Yeah. And that’s like a whole thing, but you know, WordPress is a huge project, automatic is a huge company. There’s a lot going on there. And it’s almost to the point where, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve said this before on other, on other shows, but it’s like, it’s almost like this whole thing was built again, kind of around.

Like a circle, like a circle, like a campfire, right? Like a word camp, like around a campfire. Like everyone was building that, and I wasn’t here for that. So I, I empathize with how everyone feels, you know, if they were here since like 2003 or whatever. Um, but now it’s so large that it just, every decision, like I empathize, empathize with the idea of having a business and having a project.

It’s so big that now. Literally just in a 15 year period, the decisions that you have to make are so vastly different. Like the ramifications are so vastly different of like, oh, well if we. Again, I’m making this up, but like if like wordpress.com or.org or whatever, like said, Hey, this person is fantastic.

Like Kurt is fantastic. You know, he, his content’s awesome. Do you know how many people you’re gonna piss off? Like you tried to do it one nice thing for one person and you’re gonna piss off so, so many other people. So it’s almost better to just never promote anything kind of, because then you’re just like completely agnostic.

So I don’t know. I don’t know the inner workings entirely. I just kind of like see. Based on other content creators, what they say and what their theories are and what their thoughts are. And then I see what comes out of, you know, the project and the, the, you know, the, and the product side of, of wordpress.com, wordpress.org.

And, um, it’s a wild place. I mean, I don’t. Like I said, I don’t really envy, um, being in that position. Maybe one day I’ll have a large company like that, but I don’t know. It’s like, but it’s a totally different thing. It’s like very difficult to actually understand what that is like when you’re not at that scale.

I feel like, so

 Kurt

as old as I am, you know, I remember when Amazon was in a garage selling books. Yeah, I remember, you know, when WordPress launched, I mean, I started with WordPress in 2004. I mean, that was, uh, that’s about as early adopter as you can get with WordPress. Yeah. Um. And it was confusing as the dickens back in the day, download a zip file, open this up, put this over here, copy that, that no doesn’t work.

Start over. Download a zip file. You know? Uh, so, so that’s the way it was, you know, then, and I think about where, where we’re at now, and then, and to your point now, now you know, Matt Mullenweg’s gotta be like, I’m responsible for 43% of the internet. You know, like, like how? Like, when you try and think about how does that really work?

It’s like Bezos, right? Oh, I’m in charge of, you know, 80% of e-commerce or whatever it is. Um, it’s just lunacy when we think about those things. And so let, let’s, let’s roll back. You started your business, you said, I’m a freelancer slash you know, call me an agency, you know, blah, blah, blah. I can see in your post, especially on X, you seem to be pretty forward on X, about like life goals, business goals.

Financial goals, all those things. What are the some of the biggest lessons that you learned being a business owner in the WordPress space and transitioning from freelance to

agency? So that’s been a pretty recent endeavor actually as well. ’cause I just hired, I’m just like now starting to actually build out a team.

Mark

I’ve always called myself an agency. It’s more been like an agency of one. But I, I feel like I did that because that was where I was trying to go. Like I definitely didn’t wanna always be. Completely solo, but I was obvious, I was honestly just like, kind of terrified of the concept of like hiring somebody.

But, you know, over, over my, I don’t know, it’s, it’s realistically it’s been like six or seven years, but really like five years of actual entrepreneurship. I’ve tried like a bunch of different things kind of early on and then I kind of settled more so into the website stuff and then now the content is rolled in there.

Um, I think the biggest lesson that I’ve learned, a lot of them are, again, personal to me. It’s like literally just personal development. I’m so. Interested in that. You know, I’m coming up on, you know, age 30 now. So like I am, you know, from a life perspective thing, like I am, you know, my wife and I like, we’re gonna be starting a family soon.

Like, there’s so much, like I’m in a transitionary period, so I need to realize that like, okay, the last five years and like the whole twenties have been like a lot of learning, which has been awesome. But now like I really do need to extremely focus on like actually earning, um, you know, with the businesses.

And I’m, and on top of that I’m thinking, you know, for some of the lessons, like how can I. I constantly think, how can I not, like, how can I work less and make more, but kind of in that way, like, I don’t wanna be, what I’ve learned in this, in this agency realm and broader website design is I’m a real, I, I’ve learned what I’m not good at.

Right. Let’s start there. So I’m not a good designer. Like I’m just not a good designer. Yeah, I know what’s, I know what’s like, looks good. I could definitely tell you that, but, uh, I could tell you something that looks like shit, but I. Am not really good at going from like a blank page to something beautiful that’s just, I don’t have that mind, that’s I’m much more analytical and, and objective and, and all that.

So I’m not a good designer. So that’s something that I’d like to hire out for and that I have done recently. Um, from the content side of it, I’m not. I don’t really love editing. I don’t really like creative stuff that much either, so like thumbnails and editing. That’s also something that I’m hiring out for what I’ve re what I’ve realized recently is that obviously with the advent of ai, you could get pretty, I was working on a project earlier today and I’m like, I love dynamic data.

I love the structuring of all the website stuff. Like if you tell me like what your goal is as a. As a business, you know, you’re a law firm and you wanna have all these different things on here and you show me some examples, I will structure the hell outta that website. I’ll tell you everything you need to know from a, you know, custom post type situation to the templates that you need to do for the actual, you know, the templating layouts of all those different things.

Love all that. But I’m not, like, I also don’t really wanna write the content. ’cause that’s another problem for me because I’m good at like talking and. I guess like expressing my opinions, but now it’s like I’m doing that for another business. So that’s like another piece. So, you know, maybe a copywriter or like an AI assisted copywriter is like another thing that I would need to kind of hire out there for.

But, um, you know, kind of all over the place here a little bit. But ultimately the, the things that I have learned are really the things that I don’t like doing because then I can hopefully start to delegate those more, and which I have started to now, and I’ve realized that. In WordPress, there’s a lot of people like, we could go into this if you want.

There’s a lot of people in WordPress that are trying to do it themselves, like as a freelancer, and I genuinely look around sometimes and I wonder like. These people are super talented and they work and I could tell like they work really hard and they’re really passionate, but like, I hope they are doing okay.

You know what I mean? Like, ’cause I think of myself, I’m like, if I had to do this all myself all the time, there is no way that I would ever get ahead whatsoever financially, because I just, there’s not enough time to sell. This is a common problem. There’s not enough time to sell, then fulfill and then go back to selling.

Like, it just, it’s a terrible, that’s a terrible cadence because you never. You never have the ability to actually sell more than you need for your, you know, just to support yourself and, you know, let alone save money and do that. So that’s kind of, that’s the big thing that I’ve learned over the last, like, two years of just like really getting into it.

And I’m sure it’s not a, I’m sure this is a problem that’s broader than just WordPress freelancers and agents and, and solo agency owners and stuff, but that’s like the really big one is breaking past that I feel like is, is really where I’m, where I’m at. And the biggest thing I’ve learned.

 Kurt

And, and so I, I kind of wanna leapfrog around this a little bit.

Yeah. I’m thinking about who you’re connected to, who you have conversations with, um, that I’m even aware of, let alone what I’m not aware of. Right? Yeah. And then this conversation we’re having right now, it’s like, obviously you’ve got some ideas coming from mentorship and conversations you’re having with people with more skin in the game or more, more time in, in the, in the frame set.

Think about these freelancers. Like where, where do they even see the light at the end of the tunnel? Like as you described those freelancers? I think, well, these are the people that are locked into the $1,500, $2,000 websites and they’re like, well, I can’t charge more because I’m just, you know, I’m doing this.

And it’s like, but if you don’t charge more, you’re never gonna be able to hire somebody to do the stuff that’s weighing you down it. It’s like you get into this locked in thing. The thing I’ve expressed personally that, that I found as I grew my agency was that I had to learn everything the hard way. No, there was no source.

There was no, um, root. Root source of information that said, oh, you wanna grow a successful agency? Here’s some things you want to do. A, don’t name it after yourself. Like, like just common things like don’t name it after yourself. What if you wanna sell it in 20 years? Right. And then, and just go throw these things.

And so as I’ve been creating a course to service kind of this, you know, apprenticeship pathway to growing your own agency, I’ve been able to realize, wow, if somebody would’ve told me this stuff 15 years ago, how far would I have gotten?

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. You

know, it’s been really difficult.

Yeah, there’s, so there’s a, that’s a, that’s a great point.

I mean, I. I actually have, and this is something that with my daily shorts that I post on literally every platform, I’ve been doing this thing for like 60 days where inspired by some other creators where I just, like, every single day I almost post like a quick little recap, less than three minutes of what I did, kind of, and then like a thought of the day.

So I’m extremely, I mean I’m, I was already introspective. Now I’m getting even more introspective ’cause I have to do it every single day to an audience basically. And it’s been really helpful for me. And you know, you say that. If somebody would’ve told you all that stuff, and I agree with that. My problem, and I, I think there’s other people out there that also have this problem is.

My problem is that I actually, because I’m like extremely thoughtful, I think way too much. So then I, I, if somebody would’ve told me all that, I almost would’ve probably over optimized. ’cause I feel like I did do this. Like I was creating like other mini businesses, if you look at my LinkedIn, you can see like, oh, I wanted to start like an apparel company, a podcast thing.

And then I had another podcast with my wife and then I wanted to do like real estate, you know, random shit. Like, so setting all these stuff these things up and I didn’t realize at the time that like. Just how much energy and time it takes to actually. Learn business to the point of like having any level of success.

And even now I struggle with it because I’m, I’m thinking like, how do I optimize? How do I optimize? It’s like, bro, you don’t need to optimize anything. You’re not making enough money to optimize. It’s obviously getting better. It’s trending better. But my point is like, that’s, that’s the thing is like I love that idea of a, of like a quick start course guide ’cause it’s gonna help a ton of people.

The thing I would also say though, in there, and I would, I would encourage you like almost like tell these people is like. Here’s, here’s everything that I’ve learned. But there is a very big difference between learning from your own mistakes and learning from somebody else’s. Learning from somebody else’s mistakes is amazing.

Like if you can actually take that to heart. Yeah. And you can. And you can like, oh, like this person did this and lost a million dollars. Okay, definitely not gonna do that. Like that’s great. Yeah. But sometimes you don’t even like understand how that feels, and that doesn’t fully resonate with you until you make that mistake and.

I’m not saying you have to make the mistake. It’s just like that’s, that’s one of the meta like kind of nuances to this whole thing that I’ve realized is that there’s a lot of it that you, some, honestly, sometimes it just takes time. Like it just, I don’t under, I look at these young kids now that are like 18 years old and they’re making like, you know.

A hundred grand a month or whatever they’re making these AI businesses. It’s like, I I, that’s awesome. That sounds great. I really hope you’re saving that money. ’cause I hope nothing bad ever happens to like what you’re doing. ’cause like they just make these YouTube videos and they’re just like, what are you, I don’t even, I don’t like, I understand in conceptually what you’re doing, but like, I don’t understand how you, they’re doing this.

You’re just like skipping class and just doing all this random stuff. I mean, it’s, it’s wild. This new, new generation of little entrepreneurs. But, um. But yeah, so that’s slightly off topic, but that’s, that’s just, uh, that’s what I’ve, that’s what I’ve seen so far and I’m, that’s the things that I’m navigating day to day.

 Kurt

So, uh, personal note, when, when I said I was gonna start my agency, um, I think most people heard me say that and went, oh my God, he quit a job and started an agency. I quit a job and kind of started selling websites, as, you know, more accurate, but. My wife was in the mom’s club, and there were a bunch of moms in the mom’s club that thought they knew how the world worked a whole lot better than I did, and were in her ear the whole time going, I can’t believe you let him quit his job.

Oh my God, he’s gonna make websites. I mean, my cousin can make websites. Websites are easy. That’s not a real job. That’s not a right. And so that follows for a decade. Like even like Ducati’s, my number one customer, right? And it’s like, uh, hey, there’s this job posted. Do you wanna apply for it? And it’s like, yeah.

I am creating content for Ducati North America. Oh, and by the way, I’m a motorcycle freak, so it’s like I have the dream job. I’m working for the best brand in the world, right? Um, and people were still like, oh, are you gonna go get a real job? Well, in 2020 I was working for Suzuki and they had a massive layoff.

They laid off over half the office, and uh, the whole training department got cut and I was in charge of the training department. And, uh, and so I started applying for jobs and there were no jobs to be had in California for 55-year-old white dudes looking for work in higher management. Wasn’t gonna happen.

Yeah. Was not the right, and I’m not angry, but it just wasn’t the right season for me to be unemployed, especially with COVID rolling out. Um. And so I relaunched the agency, right? I said, well, it would never, it was never dead. I was always doing side work. Let’s just relaunch this thing full time. And it was immediately the same thing.

Like, oh, just keep looking for a job. Don’t you know why? You know, do you need a real job? And now here we are in Kansas and this agency is paying for this house, right? Yeah. And it’s like, oh, hey, there’s a job. Like do you still suffer that being self-employed? Where? Where you have like this weird. I’m not saying it’s your wife.

I’m not saying it’s, but I’m like, you know, uh, the, the, the angel and the demon, right? The angel’s like, you’re killing it, man. You, you got, what do you, dude? You’re like, what, 8,000 followers on YouTube now, or something?

Mark

Uh, like six, close to six, I think.

Kurt

Ah, it’s crazy. I, not, not me, folks, not me, like, and subscribe over here if you want.

Um, but you know, you got this dude, you’re slaying it, you’re killing it, you know, everyone loves you. You’re on all these shows. You’re doing great. But that, and then you have this other thing going, you know, you could probably get a real job teaching this at a college somewhere

like, you

know.

Mark

It’s, uh, yeah, the, the, the, the devil there, the, the, the pessimist one is not my wife.

My wife is incredibly supportive. It’s actually Matt Madero is the pessimist. He’s the, he’s the biggest pessimist in my life. He can tell him I said that, uh, hopefully watch this and he’ll, he’ll know. Um, yeah, he’s, he’s, he’s, it’s funny ’cause he’s kind of like, you know, one of my, I would say one of my mentors in the space, just ’cause he is like the very first person that reached out to me when I started making like WordPress stuff or whatever.

And, um, you know, he, he’s. Talk to him all the time, and it’s been, it’s been great to dispense like all the wisdom. And that’s the other thing too, is like in the WordPress space, there’s a lot of, a lot of you guys are like, you know, more seasoned, you’ve been here, you like, you know, like how it came up.

You’ve been using it for so long. And like it’s, I just really appreciate having all the, the, again, like the wisdom from everyone that I talk to and, um. The, the job thing is something that I’ll tell you a little bit about. The job thing. The job thing. I had, uh, an internship at a re max franchise here in Pittsburgh.

It was one of like the biggest, it’s still one of the biggest like franchises here. And I got in there like at an internship in college. So around like 20 17, 20 18, something like that. Um, and I was in there for total of three years. I was at that place internship and full-time employment throughout that three years.

I was like in the, I got hired as like, kind of like tech guys. Like I was working next to guys that were coding in asp.net and shit. And then, uh, learned a lot from them and then eventually kinda moved my way into kinda like the middle of there in the marketing department. ’cause again, small lean team of, of people.

And then I was like kind of, uh. Like just a marketing person or something like that, like systems, kind of whatever. Uh, just doing a bunch of different stuff, learning a ton about, you know, the tech and the marketing side. And then ultimately I was like director of marketing of like a couple people max, right?

And over that three year period right before COVID, I left there because I literally hated it. Like I just, I, it was one of those situations where I feel like everyone goes through where you’re like, I’m just not learning enough anymore. You know, the pay, I think it was like 55 grand a year or something like that at that point.

And I was like, not terrible money. Um, especially when you’re still living at, at home at the time and everything and you know, you can say, I had money to like save and invest in all that. And like, that’s, that’s fine. But like you can’t keep doing a situation like that that you literally hate. At least I couldn’t, like I can’t keep going to.

Something every single day and just hating that. I look back on that time in my life and I think, okay, your other options were to go get a better job somewhere. Like you could have probably made more money and. Learned more and, and bought another few years. So I don’t regret just leaving that and like, just jumping I, ’cause I haven’t had a job since then.

Um, I mean, I, I, my family had a diner so I was obviously kinda like working there a little bit, but I haven’t had like an actual job since then. And I really don’t want one. Like I can’t even imagine myself having one. And I feel like the only options for me are to just make this work because it’s not like I’ve been squa like just floundering.

For five years I’ve been learning so much and we’ve, we’ve been making more money every year. So that’s. Good. It’s just like the real issue becomes when the rubber meets the road and it’s like, okay, now you are not just the general, you know, us, you know, economics and stuff like that are rising, you know, crazily.

But like you have to now, now my, like I’m, I’m in a position, like I said earlier, where I’m in a transitionary period where I have to, I have to physically make more money ’cause I’m gonna have like. I’ll have like another mouth to feed, another two mouths to feed in like less than five years. We wanna move into a, you know, a different house potentially.

Like those types of things. Um, so I know I’m like all over here with the personal stuff, but like it, that’s where it just really all, you know, it kind of comes down to when you think about like, should I continue with the business? Should I get a job, et cetera. But really when you break it down. You could honestly just do a little bit of introspection, and I think, again, this is what I do every day now is there is no reason, like there’s no real reason.

And I don’t think there’s a reality in where I fail at this. Like I might not become Elon Musk. Jeff Bezos. Yeah. But like, there’s no reality where I fail at this. I’ve already proven that I can, that I have skills and I can monetize them. Uh, I’ve already proven that I can become sort of like kind of omnipresent in a lot of like the channels and like I can, and I, and people, you know, want to connect with me and I build these relationships well and those types of things.

Really the problem is like time is the main one. And then a little bit of optimization and a little bit of focus on, Hey Mark, maybe we should like focus on the things that actually make us money. Maybe we should, maybe we should like see what we’re doing, see what lever we can pull that makes the most money most consistently, and then pull that lever a little bit more often.

And that’s all there is to it. Like I, I’m, it’s over simplifying business, but I have just realized that. I don’t think I need a job. I think maybe, again, there’s maybe a different path to go down, but I don’t like that’s, I don’t think there’s any reason to do that because I just think back to like how bad I might end up feeling.

And I don’t wanna feel like that because. You know, as you probably know, not every day in entrepreneurship is great, but I still think it’s better knowing that you’re building something that’s yours. And uh, and the last part is I just cannot be told what to and what to what To, to say and not to say and to do and not to do.

Like, it’s just not, it’s not, that’s not for me. Like, so anytime I put I put myself in a position like that, I don’t wanna, like, I wanna respect whoever I would be working for. I, I can’t do that while also staying true to myself, so to speak. Like, I can’t be like, oh, you can’t, you, like, you’re, you work for so and so, you go on podcasts, you can’t like swear or something like that or whatever.

Yeah. Like, just like that, that, that, that type of small stuff. Like I just can’t do it because I’m like radically authentic all the time. So it’s just tough. Yeah.

Kurt

I think we have a, a similar vibe there. I, I want to go back to something that you had said in your answer about simplifying business, and this is a curiosity of, of mine personally.

So I’m in the same mode as you. Like, how am I gonna optimize this? How am I gonna grow this? How am I gonna create more, more funding, more whatever. When I lived in California, I could not afford to say no to any project. The economy was so wicket, whack there that if someone said, I need a website, I was like, I’m in.

You know, like, like whatever it is, I’ll do it. I’ll do it, I’ll do it. Uh. Now that we’re in Kansas and I don’t have that pressure on my shoulders anymore, I’ve been able to say no to foolishness. I’ve been able to say no to things that don’t make sense, and I’ve been able to focus on things that are in my wheelhouse and profitable.

And so for me, I’m very much focused on membership and learning websites. I just, I, I have the skillset for it. I know how the tools work. I’m very efficient with my time building these things. And they’re skills that I can actively teach a team how to implement without giving people on the team, like direct customer access, right?

Like I can just say, oh, build this, and they’ll, they’ll build it. So it works for me. But that all came from out of the 65,000 plugins in the WordPress repository. There’s like 20 that I lean on that, that I really leverage and use. I also want to be an informative person with content creation and stuff like, like you, right?

Mm-hmm. Talk to me about simplification of business and, and like how you plan to streamline and be really good and, and have high margins with what you do without being distracted by the other 64,982 plugins.

Mark

Yeah. Yeah. It’s not an easy, it’s not an easy task. I mean, I think you have to have, I think any.

You know, like if you’re trying to be responsible and you’re trying to be, again, profitable, you don’t, you don’t wanna start every project from square one every single time. You should have some level of a blueprint, some level of a stack that you like to use. Yeah. You know, and this is, I’m gonna actually go way back for a second.

This is exactly what we’re talking about when we were talking about, um, Iran’s video. Like this concept of echo chambers, it’s just kind of human like you literally can’t know everything you can’t know and talk about everything at all times. So this is just, I think this is a real world example of that.

It’s like if I use bricks to build my websites, I. I am probably gonna know more about bricks and talk more about bricks because I use it to build my website. Yep. It’s like I used Elementor before, so I have some knowledge there. I’ve never used divvy at at scale. I’ve never used oxygen at scale. I’ve never used, you know, even like Gutenberg, like obviously you know a little bit about that ’cause it’s baked in everything, but like I’ve never really used any of that.

So. It’s like I can learn more about those things. Sure. But the trouble that I kind of have is that I have two things going on. I have a service business that needs to make money from providing a service to clients and building things that I feel are, you know, potentially scalable, maintainable, like just quality stuff.

And then I also have this other prong of myself that is a little curious and wants to educate people. Um, and I have to, and like you said, I have to be really careful with how wide I go with some of that, because. As I scale my operation, I have more people working. Like it would, it would, it’s less important how, how tight I am in that sense of like my time and, or not my time, but like my focus of like what I’m doing.

’cause I could, you know, I have a little bit more freedom. But, um, yeah, I mean, again, like that’s that when I started making those YouTube videos is ’cause I found bricks and I was like really interested in like, there was some. Thoughts I had around all those things and I was, and I was doing that. You have to, you have to have that blueprint though.

You have to have that stack. ’cause you don’t wanna start from that square one. Uh, and honestly, like this is one of the other things, like if we could put it in the column of almost like a potential negative of being in the community, is that you’re constantly inundated with all of the things that are coming out and.

As much as I would love a world where everything is as good as everything else, that’s just not how the world is. Yeah. There are some people that are, there are some products that are better than others, and there are some products that are worse than others. And I know that’s completely contradictory to like, kind of a lot of the WordPress, um, you know, community vibe that that has been created there.

But that is, that is literally it now. Good and bad is not always a great use case. It’s more like, good for this versus good for that, good for this avatar, good for this business versus that business. There’s a lot of that in there. This is not a black and white thing. It’s very nuanced. Um, but you just have to realize like that.

If, if you’re trying to build websites for a certain type of business or a certain, you know, again, learning management, like, you have to think about, okay, well do I need like learn dash stuff? Do I need lifter stuff? Like what, like what, what feature set is kind of doing that? So there’s gonna be a little bit of that, but you know, um, that’s kind of where I end up leaning on.

If I was in that position, I would end up leaning on creators or even AI at this point to kind of gimme the lowdown. And then obviously you have to do some level of testing yourself. Um, but yeah, I don’t know if that’s, I dunno if that’s the best answer, but that’s a tough one because you have to, you really have to almost, almost like only.

Dedicate you almost like have a, a almost like a dedicated window of your time where it’s like, okay, I can play around and mess around in this amount of time, or I can, you know, learn things for this amount of time in the day, but I can’t learn all the time. ’cause if I’m not doing anything, then I’m not making any money.

So that’s, that’s like the biggest thing regardless of, uh, of where you’re at, I feel like is, is my, my lesson that I’ve learned there.

Kurt

I’m super big on time blocking and journaling. I use this remarkable tablet. Uh, every conversation I have, I get notes, right? They’re all searchable. Yeah, it’s digital. I used to have notebooks and I had a stack of notebooks.

I was like, okay, I can’t find nothing in these. Uh, and so I got this remarkable thing and I’m able to like, time block my day and this is this and this is that. And podcast is here and work is here, and, and learning is here. And I’m, and I’m, I’m pretty good about it. I’m pretty good about it. I’m gonna be really transparent and tell you where I jumped off the rails, and I think I overcommitted myself.

I know it’s the right thing, but it’s a, it’s been, it’s been a challenge for me. Uh, Kevin Geary and Etch, he got all my money. I became an early adopter. He puts things out. He makes a video. Um. I find Kevin incredibly intelligent, but sometimes he’s hard to listen to. ’cause he’s so brash. You know, he’s, he’s, he’s, he is like, ah, you designed like a chump.

Well, I’ve been a chump for a long time, Kevin. Show me the right way. Um, but it, it’s, uh. It’s, it’s such a huge jump for me to go from Gutenberg and creating stuff like a chump in Elementor to this whole idea of create this piece as this class thing that’s gonna be used all over the place and change at once, and it changes everywhere.

Um, but the thing that got me was, as soon as he said, it’s a page builder. It automatically creates the blocks in Gutenberg. So a client could make the changes in Gutenberg, but you can still build in the page builder like that they were, that they’re consistent in synced. That was, that got all my money right there because the reason I don’t use Elementor on new client builds is because trying to teach clients how to use Elementor after the page is live is just some brain dead nonsense for me.

And it’s, and. While as an agency, we were selling training. We were selling consulting. We were, you would think that’s another vertical. It, it wasn’t becoming a successful vertical because clients that weren’t sharp enough, and it sounds, sounds harsh, but clients that weren’t sharp enough, weren’t satisfied with the training.

They wanted it over and over and over. And I was like, well, as we discussed three sessions ago, this is what you click. Um, and then when they got the invoice again, they were like, but I already paid for it. Yeah, well you don’t pay for it once and get me live three times. Right. You get me live once when you pay once.

Um, and it just became. Not a positive experience. And so we don’t, I was like, okay, now everybody’s in Cadence are Ara now, like, because I’m not dealing with the elemental thing and clients. Yeah. And so when he released Etch and said that was one of the features of Etch, I was like, I’m in now. I’m in. Right.

But I’m trying to learn it and I’m beating my head against the wall. I, I, you’re an too, right.

Mark

Uh, yeah, I’m, uh, I was an, I’m an advisor for, for, uh, for Etch and kinda like the building and everything like that. So that’s something that I’m. I, I’ve played around in it pretty heavily. Obviously it’s still at point.

Is it 0.21 today? I think we’re, I know that they literally, as a recording that, as of recording this, they’re literally li I think he just opened it today to, for more or early doctors. Yeah. Air conditioning

doesn’t work. It might go off a day or I, you know, we share way too

much online. We all do. I, I can’t, yeah.

Absolutely me. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Kurt

Well, uh, kudos to you. I mean, to me it seems like a paradigm shift in this page, bur page builder space. Uh, is that the impression you get too?

Mark

You know? Yeah. I mean, going back to kind of Kevin there, I, you know, I owe a lot to Kevin ’cause he is one of the like, main people too as well, that I’ve.

That I’ve learned a lot from, especially like, you know, when I moved to BrickX specifically ’cause of the content he was doing a CSS and frames and everything. You know, my thing about Kevin is I’ve, I’ve heard the, the critiques and again, sometimes I do think, you know, you could probably, ah, you know, probably could have said that a little differently.

I wouldn’t have said it like that, but I, but I still agree with what you said, so it’s a hard spot to be in. Um, but, you know, definitely extremely intelligent. Here’s the thing I would say about like. From Kevin, you know, everything that I’ve talked to him, you know, you talk to him in person. This is the other thing too.

You talk to him in person. You talk to him. DM Wise, great guy. I mean, he’s always, he’s, you know, I don’t know if you’ve seen him at any events or anything, but like it’s, he, you can tell especially in person that he wants to move this whole thing forward, obviously. He, he wants to serve himself and him family, his family, just like everyone else does.

But like he really is passionate about this stuff. And hopefully, you know, a lot of people can see that regardless of the communication. So, but specifically to make it about like the product of etch in that context is I really believe that. If you’re gonna, if you’re gonna use something to build with your business, right?

Like effectively when you pick the builder, whatever the builder is, you are building your business around that tool, right? Because like you have to either train yourself or train, or potentially end up training other people on how to do this. Yeah. Now, I can’t imagine a world, maybe some people would do this, but I can’t imagine a world where you’d wanna change your builder.

Like every year. Like that doesn’t seem like a thing that you’d wanna do. Right? I’ve changed it twice. I was an Elementor for. Several years and then bricks and I can’t imagine there’s a lot of good stuff out there, but I can’t imagine like changing all the time. Like there’s just too many out there and there’s too many similarities.

But the thing that I would say that I feel about Etch personally is that of all of the people and the builder, like the builders and the people behind the builders that I’ve kind of seen here, it’s like if you were gonna bet on something or someone wouldn’t, you bet on the one that’s like the most.

Like, almost like unbelievably relentless and passionate about something. So that’s the thing that I, that’s the, that’s, that’s probably, I probably say that a little differently, but like with etch, like, I just feel like Kevin is not gonna stop until that thing is like perfect. And he, it’s never gonna be perfect, so he’s never gonna stop.

You know what I mean? So it’s like if you were gonna build your business around something and you were gonna build it around a, a builder in WordPress specifically like this, that’s why like I am super bullish on it. Based on everything that I’ve seen. You know, nobody can predict the future, but it’s like every time I see Kevin talking about something, he’s just in the like, this is what’s happened to me over the last couple years.

I was like really in the weeds. When I got to the bricks thing I was, when I got into bricks, I was like, oh wow, this is way better than Elementor or whatever, because I could do this, this, and this really easily, and that’s awesome. But like, then I realized that if. This is a whole topic for another episode.

So I’ll, you know, I’ll try to keep it concise here, but then I got to the real, the, the realization where it’s like, Mark, you have to be honest with yourself. Like you’re not a designer. You’re not really a developer. You can build websites, but like, do you want to be doing this for the rest of your life?

And honestly, the answer is like, ah, maybe I’d love the freedom to not do it for the rest of my life. I’d love to be able to have somebody else like, kind of like me steer the ship, like move myself higher up in the business rather than. Specifically having to be, you know, chained to my desk. Like just, you know, doing stuff in Elementor bricks or whatever, right.

And I’m thinking to myself like, okay, wait a second. If that’s my goal, then I don’t necessarily wanna be the one that has to know every single CSS syntax and everything else like this. Like, I know enough to be dangerous. I probably know enough than like the average person, but there’s a, there’s a, there’s this idea of like diminishing returns where like you could know so, so much and like you could charge more for the stuff that you know for sure.

But if your goal, like I just had this problem where like I would watch a ton of content. I’d be like, oh, I wanna be a web, web, web. But it’s like, really? I don’t need to be that, and I’m not sure o over my, this has just happens over the course of you being a business person. You like, maybe you realize that you’re more of A-A-C-T-O or a CEO or a CMO or a, uh, you know, COO, right?

Like honestly, that’s kind of possibly where I’m really at. But my point is that I just realize that I didn’t want, like, I look at stuff now and I’m like. I know what this does. I know the inherent value of knowing all of these extreme technical skills, and I’m not gonna stop. Like I’m, I’m gonna continue to learn, but I’m gonna, I’m gonna change the way that I think about it and I’m gonna think, alright, I’m, I’m trying to, you know, optimize for me being out of this a little bit more.

So let me just like, focus on learning it so I can train people or learning it enough so I know what’s going on. But really why don’t I go find more people? That can fill in the holes that I physically can’t do or I don’t want to do. And that’s been a real paradigm shift, I would say, over the last like, you know, three to six months and it, and I’m happy that it’s been going that way.

And I don’t know if that was at all, at all at all, answered your question, but that’s why like all of those things put together. You know, and again, back to the Etch thing specifically, I know that Kevin’s not gonna let that thing fail. So that’s why like I am willing to be optimistic and kind of like invest my energy into learning it, but also like building around that moving forward.

Again, I think it’s, we’re kind of still in the alpha stages, so I’m not telling you to necessarily go out and start building a ton of websites with that right now. ’cause I’ve seen it and it’s, it’s extremely promising, but just like anything, it takes time to really ramp up. So, um. I’m bullish on it. Uh, but you know, that’s, that’s, I’m trying to give you the context of why I think the way that I think, and I’m, and I’m trying to like, move in that direction, uh, just with that, you know, with Etch as one of the examples,

Kurt

well, I loaded it into a test site with a CSS and started just kind formatting a homepage.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, let’s just cut yourself a break, Kurt, and let’s just do something basic right. With nobody watching and, uh, and yeah. So far, I mean, it, it’s doing stuff, but there’s so many things to do outside my skillset. Um. Listening to you talk is like listening to someone that just read the book Strength Finders, right?

Like, focus on your strengths, don’t worry about your weaknesses. Uh, I’m in the same boat. For me, it’s, I’m a, I’m an unbelievably good project manager. Unbelievably good. Like the, my, the way that I’m able to see where we’re at, like take the snapshot where we’re at, see where we want to go, what are the milestones to get there?

Who’s the best implementer for each of those milestones? Put it on a Gantt chart, boom. Like, like I have that nailed down. Mm-hmm. And so as I’ve decided to grow my agency, I’ve, I’ve very much gone into the, the phase of how can I be a good consultant, uh, trainer, coach, all that stuff, right? I’d really like to educate people, um, and then project managing.

And then when it comes to, uh, you know, the update the element or do this with the PHP, do blah, blah, blah, I have people to do that stuff. I really just try to make sure I educate myself enough that I have enough surface understanding to understand what they’re telling me. And then if clients are asking for things, I know that it’s relatable and I can, I can relate that to the team to make sure that I can, we can execute it, you know, but, but I have people to do that.

Dude, I. I’m having so much fun with you. Uh, but I do wanna value your time and thanks again for coming on the show. ’cause you could have absolutely said no, but you showed up. Um, is there anything that you’re releasing soon that you wanna share or just tell us what are the best ways for people to get in touch with you if they wanna get in touch with you outside of the show, other than liking, subscribing and following this show?

Mark

Oh yeah. Uh, yeah, I should really have something to sell. I’m working on that. Um, but if in the interim, if you just go to mjs.bio, that’s kind of my links page. You can check out the agency, you can check out my YouTube channel or whatever. If you wanna sign up for, the only thing I really promote if is there’s a newsletter sign up there.

If you wanna head over there, if you like what we’re chatting about here and everything like that, you wanna learn more, you sign up there. Then I promise you, when I have something. Of extreme value to give you other than just the content that I produce. I will let you know. So, uh, but Kurt, man, this has been a great conversation, man.

Thank you so much for having me. This whole show we didn’t even get to talk about playing hockey together.

Kurt

Next time. Next time, folks, we’ll see you next show.

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